It's great to see that Paul has raised the purse for 2006. It's a bummer though that he has deleted the 250s. The 250s had just as many cars as the 1200s. With more out of towners. The 1200 class is just a local show. Watching them at Clay Cup is just like any other Friday night but with a bigger purse. It sounds like there are going to be quite a few more 250s next year. Sure wished Paul would have waited to see what next year was going to look like for a car count before he made his decision. Unless he is going to do away with the 250 classes in general. Alot the of the 600 guys have spent ALOT of money this year just to come back every week. They say it is not so much the "cheaper class" to run in anymore. Alot of junior sprints, 250 jrs, and 250 drivers don't want to make the move to 600s because of that reason. Oh well, it's not my track. I'm just a fan.
db said
Aug 24 8:27 PM, 2005
Can someone please tell me why deming speedway has a problem with the 250's??? They have been the focus of attention for the past year.. none of it being good. What the deal?
79carpenter said
Aug 24 10:22 PM, 2005
being a 250 owner my self it is knowing how loud they are and how much smoke they produce it would be alot beter if we converted all the 250's to four strokes it would be a little less power but it might keep them around alot longer.As i see it 250's are slowly coming to an end the main focus is the 100's 600's and 1200's I my self am moving up to a 600 just becuase there's more cars and more compition in the 250's who ever starts 1st wins prety much the aint alot of action. And i thought I herd some one say there is gonna be a restricted class for the 600's next year for the rookies that are not in it for points just money.
29Sleepy said
Aug 25 7:26 AM, 2005
As a driver of a 250 for over 7 years now, and a spectator of the class for for about 10 years before that, I have been around the 250 class for most of my life. Please allow me to address what I feel are the facts.
Too Loud: after adding a simple turndown to my car, we were able to attain DB levels of 85 with old packing in the main silencer, new packing is usually good for another 2+ db drop. Now I don't know the numbers, but when they had the 600 sound check a few races back, they checked a few mufflers(on cars that I knew sounded louder). My assumption is they were over the 90db limit to trigger that check. Let me remind you that the difference between 85 and 90 is significant, your ear can tell 85 from 86. Yes, 250's can get loud, but the track has a 90db limit that they are enforcing for all cars right? If someone has a noise complaint, it should be considered a problem with the track's current standard. I have talked to many people in the stands since this rumor arose, and found that most people said they dislike the high pitch of the 600 and the surprisingly loud JR sprints. We plan to discuss a new club standard for the 250 noise limits to elinimate this concern. I am surprised that the noise made by a motorcycle engine would really be an issue considering most of our spectator base is related to the cars and Skagit regulars.
Smoke: This is a fairly new one, it seems that whoever is fueling the opposition is running out of steam, so smoke came up. I sat up in the stands for a couple of the 250 hot laps and lower mains at Clay Cup to see how bad it was (since I rarely get to view them from the stands). I was unable to detect any smell of caster oil, nor was my view impacted by the smoke. In fact, once the cars were hard on throttle, I could not really see the smoke. I will however remind those who complain about the smoke that most people increased the amount of oil we run about 3-4 years ago, when the track's main complaint was that the 250 engine is unreliable and we (the drivers or club) needed to do something. We did, and the motors last great. On the other hand, I have had the opportunity to view 600 and 1200 mains from the stands, and the dust created by the larger wings and tires made viewing the cars difficult without glasses.
Here is what I feel is the real reason behind the opposition to the 250 platform. Over the past 5 years, we have become increasingly competitive with the big classes. I know that Eric set a quick time a while back that would have put him 8th (out of 18) in the 1200 and 7th (out of 19) in the 600 time-ins! The problem started a few years ago when people started spending money using the 250 class to funnel drivers up the ladder. They spent a lot more than most on motors to get them right to the edge. They melted a few down, and complained that these motors are too hard to run and too expensive. It really didn't matter because they only intended to be in the 250 class a year or 2 anyway before they moved up to 1200's and beyond. They did however get the attention of the track management, and that spurred the Club discussions on motor life. There is still a handlful of people who consider the class a stepping stone, but the majority of the drivers in the class now are happy with the class, and don't want to spend (or don't have) the extra money to move to a 600 or 1200. Why double your initial investment, and increase your sustaining costs to run .3-.5 seconds faster?
Personally, I feel that a 250 is a very good place to develop a driver, because you don't have horsepower to get you out of trouble. If you want to be fast in a 250, you absolutley have to be smooth. The drivers I see move to skagit with 250 experience have done exceptionally well (Vauhn Bergman and Heath doing a great job in the sportsmans, Johnson moved up to 410s and is very competitive, and don't forget Pritchard, the Jacobsons, Harkness, Rutz, Ridge and others spent time in 250 chassis. Just because he sponsors the JR100's doesn't mean Kasey Kahne started in one. He started at Deming in a 250Jr.
I too am dissapointed that the 250's have been dropped from Clay Cup. My guess is that when the classes are combined, you will see more 250's on the track than any other class in 06. Plus the purse was top heavy as it was. I got 800 for 3rd in 2000 and 800 for 3rd in 2005. the winner went from 2000 to 2500. He would draw much more attention if it was still 2500 to win and he spread that extra 2500 back by adding $150 to each place 2-16.
A 600 restricted class really has no driver base in my opinion. You wont get too many people who want to "step down" from 600's and 250's (they will be slower than 250's). Inital investment is still twice that of a good 250, so why pay more for a slower car? Anyone who does get out of 250's will just continue to make the market more appealing by lowering initial costs.
As always, The Turner's will continue to promote our class, with information and assistance to anyone who needs it. We have nothing to hide, and look forward to an exciting year in 2006.
Brandon Turner
Barrz said
Aug 25 9:56 AM, 2005
I am just lost for words as to the cutting of the 250 class next year, there are plenty of things that can be done to fix everyones ploblems if smoke of noise is the problem. Mark my words the 250 class will be one of the biggest next year, i have sold 3 more 250s down here and have 3 others wanting cars right now. The class just had a small lule the past year or two, but is coming back. If it is not a noise or smoke problem, why not change the format slightly to cut down on cars for saturday night. Our team for one only keeps a 250 car around mainly to run at Clay Cup and a few other big races and this would make us rethink our racing program.Unfortionetly getting a 600 or 1200 is not in the plan just to race at deming. There are far to many ways to make this class work than to just pull the plug.
79carpenter said
Aug 25 9:59 AM, 2005
You made a true good point. But I would like to move up along with scott #48, J.R. #57, and me #79c.
Carpenter 79c
Harry said
Aug 25 11:32 AM, 2005
The race that the 250's put on Saturday night of Clay Cup was horrible. They had to shorten the race because they couldn't even run enough consecutive laps to finish the race within the time restriction.
-- Edited by Harry at 12:38, 2005-08-25
db said
Aug 25 1:50 PM, 2005
I know the 250 race at clay cup was long but look at some of the other classes on other night no one is ever perfect ...right ?
jmadonia said
Aug 25 8:32 PM, 2005
we can debate the pros and cons of the 250 class from now until the last 250 race is run at deming speedway, and paul turns out the lights on them, which does appears to be coming. if the class is going to continue it will have to be somewhere other than deming speedway. finding another track should be focus of the folks who want to continue this class.also for all you people(including myself) who want to sell your 250 and move up, good luck, its kind of hard to sell a car when there is no place to race it. joe #42 250 & 600.
vpmotorsports00 said
Aug 25 10:18 PM, 2005
i'll get right to the point...... at deming speedway.... if you are capable of running a 250 and do well at it being a good steping stone.. thats the point you are ready to move on.. none of this restricted 600 stuff... 250's are a good show cheap to buy and cheap to run when on top of everything.. and what are these people that have top notch stuff gonna do with their programs... give em way.. cuttem up or what being no where else close to racing them round here.... i wanna see the 250s run as does many other fans... specially at claycup... and when there are just as many 250s as there were 1200's that show up.. and the 1200s is jsut like another weekly show having 0 out of towners.. point is when you can master a 250.. then ur ready to move to a hgiher class.. not make the jump right away as there could be people hurt and equipment tore up because there is so mush more car.. 250 good stepping stone case closed...
79carpenter said
Aug 25 10:37 PM, 2005
Yea the 250 is a good class but why stay in it if paul plans on shuting them down in a cupple of years when u can sell your car now while you can and move up or down. I would love to move up ever sence ive been to deming ive love the 600's but yet i got a 250. I know the jump is big for a rookie. Dont get me wronge the 250 is a kick in the pants but its a wise choice if you ask me.
Homer2handed said
Aug 26 7:59 AM, 2005
Has Paul said that weekly 250 class is going away?
I have NOT heard that !
MMR said
Aug 26 8:28 AM, 2005
That has been a 'rumor' for a long.....long time. I think it get's going about this time every year.
mmr
29Sleepy said
Aug 26 8:31 AM, 2005
Paul has stated that for Deming's purposes he intends to combine the JR and SR 250 classes for 06 due to this year's car count. He has also said that he would like to start a 600 restricted class. However, both of these decisions will be impacted by the NWMSA rules meetings to determine what classes we will sanction. it is possible that a 600 restricted class could exist as a non-sanctioned "track" class, which would not enjoy the authority of the NWMSA rulebook, tech, and points fund.
Homer2handed said
Aug 26 8:47 AM, 2005
So it's just rumor, sounds like ever track in the area lots of rumors
db said
Aug 26 9:40 AM, 2005
The issue is not the fact that the 250's might be gone next year rather they got cut from clay cup entirely. When they were one short of the 1200 class at clay cup. They got the short end of the stick by only having two days while the other classes had 3. Now they are not invovled in the "big show" at deming at all. Even though the car count was up close to the other classes. Is this just?
29Sleepy said
Aug 26 10:42 AM, 2005
actually, i think the count was the same for 1200 and 250's, at 24 cars. This means that the 1200's didn't even meet the 25 car minimum for full payout that was set for 250's. As such, the track decided to maintain the full payout for both classes.
Look at it from a business perspective. You have a large population of cars that are cheap, fast, and reliable in the market already. You have a current count that,when combined, outnumbers both 4stroke classes, and you have a large number of "sustaining" drivers, not a pack who really don't care what happens to the class in 2 years, cause they will be at skagit or other anyway. What logic is there behind parking a big home class at your biggest race?
The fact that Paul shortened the schedule to 2 nights actually hurt the track tremendously. No payout for prelims, so it wouldn't have cost the track anything to run 3nights. Our team would have spent extra on pit passes, front gate, concessions etc. The track could have made another $2000 by running 3nights of 250s. Pre-entry was cited as the reason for 2nights, but the website FAILED to process our pre-entry, we had to take it to Brandy to get the cars entered. As I said in a previous post, making a top heavy purse more top heavy isn't going to draw any travelers when they are at a disadvantage from the start. he needs 24 new cars in the 600&1200's to make up for the lost 250 revenues, and considering the lack of 1200 classes that are within reasonable travel distance, and the 600 count was big already, I think they may be in trouble.
omanfamily said
Aug 26 11:11 AM, 2005
F.Y.I. Clay Cup 2005 car count: 1200-24 cars (all local), 250-24 cars (mix of local and out of town)
I think one of the great things about clay cup is all the classes racing, (I think JR Sprints should be apart of it also) it helps mix the show up, thursday of Clay Cup was not the same w/out the 250's.
My concern with the loss of the 250's is a rookie or uncapable drivers only choice to race is in the 600 class. How are we going to control people moving up that are not capable of driving 600's? I also think this will open the door for junk cars and out of control drivers in the 600 class. Right now only having 8-12 cars in the 250 jr. class gives us lots of room to pass and avoid the few cars that have a tough time controling there cars. These same drivers will be a major prob. in the 600 class becouse of the way the class spreads out and the leaders are in trafic 5-10 laps into the race.
What about the low budget racing family's of the north west, not everyone can afford a 10-15k 600. A race ready strong 250 car is selling for 5k and there are lots of good cars for 3k, and even old right hand drive and stallard chassis just for fun cars for 2k. I feel like local racing is starting to turn its back on the little guys, If I can't afford a 600 and the 250s class is cancled I guess its back to karting or maybe to monroe in a street stock .
I love the NW micro racing and people, it would be a shame if only people w/100k a year income could afford to race at deming.
just my 2 cents................
29Sleepy said
Aug 26 12:02 PM, 2005
Check out the 600 restricted thread. The track spokesman has indicated the tracks plans.
And from a financial standpoint, the Oman's hit the nail on the head. Those who are spending tons on micros are only here for a short time before they move on, but they are setting the precedent for what it takes to race at Deming.
The Ham said
Aug 28 8:13 PM, 2005
omanfamilyI have a couple of questions about your post, if the 1200's had all local cars at Clay Cup, where is Robert Welch? and why haven't we had 12 car B-main events every week? But, beyond the numbers, the problem with the car count at clay cup for the 1200's was the two biggest 1200 racing organizations on this coast had points races scheduled for that weekend. Those in contention for a championship were probably not interested in attending Clay Cup if it was going to cost them precious points as easily seen by all the close points races even here at Deming.
As far as your financial concerns go, it has been my experience that the 1200 is less expensive to run. The engine alone is less expensive than a 250 motor by a couple thousand dollars. Who are all of these 100K+ a year members of the 1200 and 600 classes? I can only think of a couple out of over 30 drivers on a weekly basis so I think running a 1200 can be done on a less than 100K budget. I know until this year my familly has managed to consistenly run two cars on less than 100K and will continue to run them on less than that.
29Sleepy said
Aug 29 6:59 AM, 2005
I can put together a HYPER 263 just like the 2003 Clay Cup champion for about $3000, fresh, complete and race ready. converting any (non 76mm) 250 to our forumula runs less than $1000. It will run a full season on a rebuild and cost $250 yearly on pistons. After purchasing a ZX12r kit for Dad's hot rod project, we can say the cost is very similar.
A 250 will only get you in trouble if you push the motor too far. I have never seen an engine come out of ESR's factory that wont run strong.
Brandon
-- Edited by 29Sleepy at 08:01, 2005-08-29
29Sleepy said
Aug 29 7:25 AM, 2005
To the Ham, whoever you may be. Your statement that the 1200 motors are a couple thousand cheeper than 250s is just plain false. If you look at the microracing.com classified pages you will find several good 250 motors in the $1500 to $2000 range. Now unless someone is paying you to take 1200 motors off their hands, you aren't beating those prices by two thousand dollars. And yes, I know a brand new ESR 250 is $4200, but a person doesn't have to buy a brand new motor to be highly competitive. And those 1200s you are buying, are they brand new??? The continual proliferation of this type of lie is damaging to not only the 250 class but to our sport in general. As we have offerred before, if anyone is interested in the TRUE cost of running the 250 class, we at Turner Racing will share all of our receipts and business records.
We have nothing against those who choose to race 600s and 1200s. In fact we feel that having the variety at the track is a draw for spectators. What we fail to understand is why some of the other racers choose to cast stones at the 250 class, using outright lies and lots of mis-informtion to dis-credit the class.
What is wrong with having 4 classes of competitive cars all running at the same track and all getting along??
Let's get this behind us and get on to something more productive.
Turner Racing Enterprises
Galen Turner
The Ham said
Sep 5 8:43 PM, 2005
I read your post and thought that maybe things had changed a lot since I left the 250 class a few years ago. So I visted ESR's website to find the price of a brand new race ready engine. They had no price posted that I could find so, I called them. When I talked to somone at the shop they would not quote me a price if I didn't have at least cases to send them. I asked repeatedly for what it would cost to get a reace ready motor. He told me the best way to figure it out is add up every part on the site, and that is what it would cost. I had no desire to add this up but I would bet more than a wooden nickle that it is more than $4200. So, I am now publicly inquiring to you, the Turners, as to how much it is.
I would admit that no one is paying me to install my motor. But upon researching the website you provided I noticed very few 250 motors for sale (All that I found though were from the 1990s) at that price, but several 600 car items. That however, is not the point, you can't compare used parts. One used item isn't as good as another. Maybe two-thousand dollars cheaper was mispoken and for that I do apologize. But I don't need to put in new pistons every month either because they get worn out. In fact, since the ZX12R phenomonon I have not heard of a piston being replaced due to wear.
This was not the heart of my original post though. The point to my original post was that you don't need to make six figures to race a 1200 car or a 600 car. and the 1200 cars have drawn out of towners in years past when they have not a had a points race that weekend. In no way was I trying to discredit the class but when people spread falacies about these clases it is equally important that they be stoped.
That said, let us put this behind us and continue onward and upward.
29Sleepy said
Sep 6 9:26 AM, 2005
prices quoted from Hyper Racing website. Deming legal CR250 engines
76mm ESRdeluxe package $4199
74mm ESRdeluxe package $4149
72mm ESRdeluxe package $3999
These are new and complete from carb to pipe.
For reference, the CR250 is the same from 92-01, so any bottom end will work, just put the crank and cylinder you want on it. our engines have "the 1990's" bottom ends like you found on microracing.
We make no intent to damage the 600's or 1200's at Deming. You spoke very well in stating that "when people spread falacies about these classes it is equally important that they be stopped". It is undoubtedly wise to seek information from the long time 1200 car owner for 1200 costs, the long time 600 owner for 600 costs, and the long time 250 owner for 250 costs.
We are glad you have found a class that you enjoy, and wish you the best of Luck.
Brandon
Turner Racing Enterprises
You made a true good point. But I would like to move up along with scott #48, J.R. #57, and me #79c.
Carpenter 79c
The race that the 250's put on Saturday night of Clay Cup was horrible. They had to shorten the race because they couldn't even run enough consecutive laps to finish the race within the time restriction.
-- Edited by Harry at 12:38, 2005-08-25
I know the 250 race at clay cup was long but look at some of the other classes on other night no one is ever perfect ...right ?
Has Paul said that weekly 250 class is going away?
I have NOT heard that !
That has been a 'rumor' for a long.....long time. I think it get's going about this time every year.
mmr
F.Y.I. Clay Cup 2005 car count: 1200-24 cars (all local), 250-24 cars (mix of local and out of town)
I think one of the great things about clay cup is all the classes racing, (I think JR Sprints should be apart of it also) it helps mix the show up, thursday of Clay Cup was not the same w/out the 250's.
My concern with the loss of the 250's is a rookie or uncapable drivers only choice to race is in the 600 class. How are we going to control people moving up that are not capable of driving 600's? I also think this will open the door for junk cars and out of control drivers in the 600 class. Right now only having 8-12 cars in the 250 jr. class gives us lots of room to pass and avoid the few cars that have a tough time controling there cars. These same drivers will be a major prob. in the 600 class becouse of the way the class spreads out and the leaders are in trafic 5-10 laps into the race.
What about the low budget racing family's of the north west, not everyone can afford a 10-15k 600. A race ready strong 250 car is selling for 5k and there are lots of good cars for 3k, and even old right hand drive and stallard chassis just for fun cars for 2k. I feel like local racing is starting to turn its back on the little guys, If I can't afford a 600 and the 250s class is cancled I guess its back to karting or maybe to monroe in a street stock
.
I love the NW micro racing and people, it would be a shame if only people w/100k a year income could afford to race at deming.
just my 2 cents................
-- Edited by 29Sleepy at 08:01, 2005-08-29
To the Ham, whoever you may be. Your statement that the 1200 motors are a couple thousand cheeper than 250s is just plain false. If you look at the microracing.com classified pages you will find several good 250 motors in the $1500 to $2000 range. Now unless someone is paying you to take 1200 motors off their hands, you aren't beating those prices by two thousand dollars. And yes, I know a brand new ESR 250 is $4200, but a person doesn't have to buy a brand new motor to be highly competitive. And those 1200s you are buying, are they brand new??? The continual proliferation of this type of lie is damaging to not only the 250 class but to our sport in general. As we have offerred before, if anyone is interested in the TRUE cost of running the 250 class, we at Turner Racing will share all of our receipts and business records.
We have nothing against those who choose to race 600s and 1200s. In fact we feel that having the variety at the track is a draw for spectators. What we fail to understand is why some of the other racers choose to cast stones at the 250 class, using outright lies and lots of mis-informtion to dis-credit the class.
What is wrong with having 4 classes of competitive cars all running at the same track and all getting along??
Let's get this behind us and get on to something more productive.
Turner Racing Enterprises
Galen Turner
I read your post and thought that maybe things had changed a lot since I left the 250 class a few years ago. So I visted ESR's website to find the price of a brand new race ready engine. They had no price posted that I could find so, I called them. When I talked to somone at the shop they would not quote me a price if I didn't have at least cases to send them. I asked repeatedly for what it would cost to get a reace ready motor. He told me the best way to figure it out is add up every part on the site, and that is what it would cost. I had no desire to add this up but I would bet more than a wooden nickle that it is more than $4200. So, I am now publicly inquiring to you, the Turners, as to how much it is.
I would admit that no one is paying me to install my motor. But upon researching the website you provided I noticed very few 250 motors for sale (All that I found though were from the 1990s) at that price, but several 600 car items. That however, is not the point, you can't compare used parts. One used item isn't as good as another. Maybe two-thousand dollars cheaper was mispoken and for that I do apologize. But I don't need to put in new pistons every month either because they get worn out. In fact, since the ZX12R phenomonon I have not heard of a piston being replaced due to wear.
This was not the heart of my original post though. The point to my original post was that you don't need to make six figures to race a 1200 car or a 600 car. and the 1200 cars have drawn out of towners in years past when they have not a had a points race that weekend. In no way was I trying to discredit the class but when people spread falacies about these clases it is equally important that they be stoped.
That said, let us put this behind us and continue onward and upward.