A super 600 class like Visalia does? Lets get it out in the open now and see what page everyone is on?
ksmauck said
Sep 19 7:56 AM, 2010
Is the question what about a different class? An open and a stock class?
If that were the question I'd be concerned that we wouldn't have enough cars in one of the classes or the other.
As far as open motors I'm not sure what benefit they would provide us at Deming. I've heard both sides. Some, including Paul, have said that he doesn't think an open motor at Deming would make enough of a difference and that you would lose bottom end, which is really important at Deming.
Others say it would make a huge difference and open the track up a little more.
In either case open motors will, to a degree, create the haves and the have nots. Some people, many people, simply can't afford to dump 7-10,000 in their motors to make them faster but weaker. There is no question that building these motors make them more likely to go boom. Go down to Visalia and watch them race and watch them blow. Last year 3 of them went in hot laps before the races even started and I'm talking bail out of the car because it was on fire blow.
I'm open to either open or stock or some compromise in between like we have now and then opening up the motors for clay cup and having a weight rule, (example: Stock 750, Open Head 775, Open Motor 800). In fact I'd be open to this rule and have it as an open class all year.
Another thing to consider: Some say that if you build the heads and don't build the bottom end you are taking chances with your motor and you should be able to strengthen the bottom end, but current rules don't permit it.
29Sleepy said
Sep 19 8:42 AM, 2010
Let's see, I was 13th in qualifying this week, .13 off the pole. My engine is stock head, has 30 races on it, and I rolled across the scales at 820. Not sure what someone thinks they can do to make a MORE competitive & affordable class than that. The engine rules we have today are creating some of the closest racing in the country. Three different engine makes with various combinations of carbs and injection all running competitive.
I guess I don't understand why we'd want to put more emphasis on the guy building the engine than the driver & setup in the car.
29Sleepy said
Sep 19 8:51 AM, 2010
If we need more HP- Kyle's point of going to a 1000cc sidewinder makes more sense... You can buy all the liters you want for a quarter of a full multi engine.
tmsmoto said
Sep 19 5:52 PM, 2010
Dont know bout anyone else but doing my head work completly made my motor a piece of shhhh...meaning no bottom end. I can see a stock motor killin a built one. Did it at visalia against full multy so go ahaead open up ther rules add some weight to the guys that can afford those big motors and lets see what happens..
tmsmoto said
Sep 19 6:06 PM, 2010
I WOULD LOVE TO SEE A SIDEWINDER CLASS!!!
spiritone said
Sep 21 9:17 AM, 2010
In all the classes i have been involved in ( stockcar classes) it always starts this way. The class starts out with fairly stock engines, then a few more mods are allowed, then a few more and every step mods are allowed you lose a few cars. As these mods are allowed the price of the class goes up and you start losing cars from the bottom. Yes you end up with a fast exciting class but with only 15 or 16 cars. Is this what we are after? Did allowing head work this year make the class better?
A sidewinder class may be a good idea but is it going to be at the expense of losing cars in the open 600 class or the 1200 class? Will we end up with the same number of total cars split up into more classes?
Changes to classes are very tricky when it comes to assessing how many cars you are going to gain or lose. Is the price of the cars getting to where we will lose cars to other classes? I think we are getting to a very critical point in how this class is going to evolve and the success of this class is more dependent on the racers at the bottom of the points than the racers at the top.
96-Hamilton-96 said
Sep 22 5:31 AM, 2010
tmsmoto wrote:
Dont know bout anyone else but doing my head work completly made my motor a piece of shhhh...meaning no bottom end. I can see a stock motor killin a built one. Did it at visalia against full multy so go ahaead open up ther rules add some weight to the guys that can afford those big motors and lets see what happens..
I couldnt agree more!
larry said
Sep 23 6:34 PM, 2010
SIDEWINDER CLASS ; AWESOME IDEA, small chance of happening, (TALK TO PAUL) Most people do not understand this class, First of all, there is Three Different variation's of this car, 1) a micro or 600 car with a 1000 motor, 2) basically a micro or 600 car with 13 inch tires with a 1000 motor, 3) an upright or 1200 car with a 1000 motor. For rules and more info go to http://sidewindersprints.com/rules.htm (note some of the rules) MOTORS MUST REMAIN STOCK, other than oil pan, exhaust and alky conversion, then the punishment for getting caught cheating!!!!! MUST BE 16 YEARS OR OLDER TO DRIVE
-- Edited by larry on Friday 24th of September 2010 10:07:28 AM
-- Edited by tehovind on Thursday 23rd of September 2010 08:51:35 PM
MPH Racing said
Sep 24 9:23 AM, 2010
I just thought I should through in my 2 cents. If Paul did decide to open up the rules (multi's- Open rules) they should do like Kelly suggested and make then put weight in (example: Stock 750, Open Head 775, Open Motor 800). That way the people can through money at it and still be fair to the low dollar racers. The Tracks in California do that and it works pretty good, I think. It would keep the racing close and good for the fans. We could also just leave the rules how they are right now, it seems to work pretty well.
r_wood24 said
Sep 24 1:31 PM, 2010
I don't think there is anyone that wants to spend that kind of money on multi motors at deming....the track is not big and wide enough like they are in california to get them motors to work . We have raced there in cali. a few times and the stock 600 keeps right up with the multis with ease .And half the guys already weigh 800 lbs. lol
29Sleepy said
Sep 26 8:43 AM, 2010
I have yet to hear a compelling case for how opening up engine rules is going to improve the overall competitiveness or affordability of the class, and those are the two basic things that EVERY rules change should be based on.... Maintain a set of rules that will continue to put 25-30 cars on the track week after week and you're doing something right.
96-Hamilton-96 said
Oct 14 3:54 PM, 2010
????
ksmauck said
Oct 27 8:56 PM, 2010
I know this post is kind of dead but lets see if we can revive it because I think we need to have some direction pretty soon so people can decide what, if anything, they can or can't do.
Here are some of my final thoughts on the matter:
#1 our motor rules are different than the rest of the country. As they are now, we make it difficult for other racers to come here and compete and we make it difficult on our racers to go somewhere else and win. (Deming Racers still don't have a win down in California with a stock motor Randy and the truth of the matter is many of the cars down their aren't multi's either but almost all of them have lightened cranks, gears removed, charging systems removed).
Most tracks or sanctioning bodies either have multi classes or bone stock classes (no hot boxes, not lightened clutch plates, no headwork, etc) or they have rules in place to address the difference between the stock and multi cars when they compete together, (i.e. California stock car 750lbs, 1mm over 790, 2mm over 810 and any of the above listed motors can have headwork, remove the gears, lighten the crank, use stronger aftermarket rods, remove charging system). That puts the decision in the car owner/drivers hands and gives everyone more options. You want to be a budget racer and keep a stock motor then take weight off your car. Want to dump a bunch of money into your motor, over bore it and make it less reliable then put weight in your car or find Kelly Mauck to drive it and you won't have to add any weight!
I hear a lot of people say that we have competitive racing with our rules now and it is true. Last year was some of the most competitive racing I have ever seen and most of the people I have talked to agree. Prior to last year we had the great debate about changing the head rules and you heard all the same reasons from people about why we shouldn't and how it was going to hurt the class and make it less competitive, but it didnt.
I think if we make a compromise we can have the best of both worlds at Deming. Open up the bottom end. Let people dump money into aftermarket rods if they think it will make their motor more reliable. Let them protect their investment so to speak, it's not your money....it's theirs. Let everyone remove gears from the transmission, lighten the crank, have it polished and balanced, remove the charging system, but keep stock bore and stroke. These changes in the bottom end will cost someone far less than it will to spend $1200 on a ported and polished head and will likely increase the reliability of the motors we run. Ever heard of a 4th 5th or 6th gear causing a breakdown in a motor that only runs in 2nd or 3rd? It happens.
If we allow people to do these fairly simple things, it will do a few things for us. #1 Tech will be a simple matter of checking bore and stroke, #2 Far more California cars will come up because this is exactly what most of them run, #3 we can open the motor rules to allow multi's during clay cup and throw more weight at them, #4 it will keep racing competitive at Deming, #5 It will allow our racers who choose to go race at other venues like California a better chance of winning on those bigger tracks where these changes will make more of a difference.
A super 600 class like Visalia does? Lets get it out in the open now and see what page everyone is on?
Is the question what about a different class? An open and a stock class?
If that were the question I'd be concerned that we wouldn't have enough cars in one of the classes or the other.
As far as open motors I'm not sure what benefit they would provide us at Deming. I've heard both sides. Some, including Paul, have said that he doesn't think an open motor at Deming would make enough of a difference and that you would lose bottom end, which is really important at Deming.
Others say it would make a huge difference and open the track up a little more.
In either case open motors will, to a degree, create the haves and the have nots. Some people, many people, simply can't afford to dump 7-10,000 in their motors to make them faster but weaker. There is no question that building these motors make them more likely to go boom. Go down to Visalia and watch them race and watch them blow. Last year 3 of them went in hot laps before the races even started and I'm talking bail out of the car because it was on fire blow.
I'm open to either open or stock or some compromise in between like we have now and then opening up the motors for clay cup and having a weight rule, (example: Stock 750, Open Head 775, Open Motor 800). In fact I'd be open to this rule and have it as an open class all year.
Another thing to consider: Some say that if you build the heads and don't build the bottom end you are taking chances with your motor and you should be able to strengthen the bottom end, but current rules don't permit it.
Let's see, I was 13th in qualifying this week, .13 off the pole. My engine is stock head, has 30 races on it, and I rolled across the scales at 820. Not sure what someone thinks they can do to make a MORE competitive & affordable class than that. The engine rules we have today are creating some of the closest racing in the country. Three different engine makes with various combinations of carbs and injection all running competitive.
I guess I don't understand why we'd want to put more emphasis on the guy building the engine than the driver & setup in the car.
AWESOME IDEA, small chance of happening, (TALK TO PAUL)
Most people do not understand this class, First of all, there is Three Different variation's of this car, 1) a micro or 600 car with a 1000 motor, 2) basically a micro or 600 car with 13 inch tires with a 1000 motor, 3) an upright or 1200 car with a 1000 motor. For rules and more info go to http://sidewindersprints.com/rules.htm (note some of the rules) MOTORS MUST REMAIN STOCK, other than oil pan, exhaust and alky conversion, then the punishment for getting caught cheating!!!!!
MUST BE 16 YEARS OR OLDER TO DRIVE
-- Edited by larry on Friday 24th of September 2010 10:07:28 AM
I believe this is the website you suggested: http://www.sidewindersprints.com/rules.htm
...especially sections F, G, etc.
-- Edited by tehovind on Thursday 23rd of September 2010 08:51:35 PM
I have yet to hear a compelling case for how opening up engine rules is going to improve the overall competitiveness or affordability of the class, and those are the two basic things that EVERY rules change should be based on.... Maintain a set of rules that will continue to put 25-30 cars on the track week after week and you're doing something right.
I know this post is kind of dead but lets see if we can revive it because I think we need to have some direction pretty soon so people can decide what, if anything, they can or can't do.
Here are some of my final thoughts on the matter:
#1 our motor rules are different than the rest of the country. As they are now, we make it difficult for other racers to come here and compete and we make it difficult on our racers to go somewhere else and win. (Deming Racers still don't have a win down in California with a stock motor Randy and the truth of the matter is many of the cars down their aren't multi's either but almost all of them have lightened cranks, gears removed, charging systems removed).
Most tracks or sanctioning bodies either have multi classes or bone stock classes (no hot boxes, not lightened clutch plates, no headwork, etc) or they have rules in place to address the difference between the stock and multi cars when they compete together, (i.e. California stock car 750lbs, 1mm over 790, 2mm over 810 and any of the above listed motors can have headwork, remove the gears, lighten the crank, use stronger aftermarket rods, remove charging system). That puts the decision in the car owner/drivers hands and gives everyone more options. You want to be a budget racer and keep a stock motor then take weight off your car. Want to dump a bunch of money into your motor, over bore it and make it less reliable then put weight in your car or find Kelly Mauck to drive it and you won't have to add any weight!
I hear a lot of people say that we have competitive racing with our rules now and it is true. Last year was some of the most competitive racing I have ever seen and most of the people I have talked to agree. Prior to last year we had the great debate about changing the head rules and you heard all the same reasons from people about why we shouldn't and how it was going to hurt the class and make it less competitive, but it didnt.
I think if we make a compromise we can have the best of both worlds at Deming. Open up the bottom end. Let people dump money into aftermarket rods if they think it will make their motor more reliable. Let them protect their investment so to speak, it's not your money....it's theirs. Let everyone remove gears from the transmission, lighten the crank, have it polished and balanced, remove the charging system, but keep stock bore and stroke. These changes in the bottom end will cost someone far less than it will to spend $1200 on a ported and polished head and will likely increase the reliability of the motors we run. Ever heard of a 4th 5th or 6th gear causing a breakdown in a motor that only runs in 2nd or 3rd? It happens.
If we allow people to do these fairly simple things, it will do a few things for us. #1 Tech will be a simple matter of checking bore and stroke, #2 Far more California cars will come up because this is exactly what most of them run, #3 we can open the motor rules to allow multi's during clay cup and throw more weight at them, #4 it will keep racing competitive at Deming, #5 It will allow our racers who choose to go race at other venues like California a better chance of winning on those bigger tracks where these changes will make more of a difference.
That's about it!