In my opinion, to keep the 250 class going, they should switch from 250 two stroke motors to 450 four stroke motors. The four stroke are much more reliable and make a little more power and torque. They're going four stroke in the AMA so why shouldn't micro sprints do it.
Just my 2 cents, what do you think?
29Sleepy said
Aug 1 10:54 AM, 2005
The biggest problem with the 450 4stroke engines, is the, larger amount of parts (some are 5 valve), the teching issue, and they are $500+ more in the bike. the big advantage for 4strokes in the bikes is the broad powerband and huge torque numbers, but as you can clearly hear in the 600 class, micros rely on the last 20% of the RPM range anyway. The modern Honda based 250 is a very reliable engine, provided you don't try to make up for driver inability by pushing the motor too hard. as long as you jet reasonably and don't run the squish too tight (around .040), these things last great. If you look on page 3 of the racing dscussion, you will find my thread on the real costs of a 250, much lower than the opposition would like you to beleive. A full season of racing on a 250 engine costs us about $1100, and that is a rebuilt crank, fresh plating, pistons, bearings, gears, gaskets. Sure you can spend more, but that is what Eric won the Clay Cup with, so I guess it must be good enough. These engines are readily available for $1500-2000.
The best thing to save the 250 class is for everyone to stop and think about the facts. There are plenty of chassis and engines already in the area, the class has run effectivly the same engine rules for over 10 years, and if you ask around the pits, you will find that the majority of the people who are ACTUALLY IN the 250 classes love them. the combined JR and SR classes have out numbered both the 600's and 1200's for several weeks, so I still say it is a myth that the 250's are dying. They biggest problem with them is that they force you to drive smooth, and that is a tough thing for some drivers to learn. Our team has many plans in the works for the off season and for 06 that should help restore faith in the class, including a "build and maintain your own engines" clinic, class sponsors, and our team is also putting an end to the ever popular "noise" issue, which people defy the science of sound waves to complain about. Listen to the 29 and 92 cars in qualifying for a preview, we are expecting Db levels in the low 80s, almost ten below the other classes. If you are familiar with Db's you will know that a difference of 10db actually means 3x louder or softer.
Forgive me if I am a little direct, but I am very disappointed that there are certain individuals with little to no experience with a 250 whining about how expensive they are. If you look at the numbers, it would be devastating for Deming to loose the 250 class. I do value your opinion, and commend you for making the effort to help save the class by addressing it in a public forum.
Brandon Turner
Deming Speedway patron since 1986
29Sleepy said
Aug 1 10:56 AM, 2005
As always, The Turner Racing pit area is always open to anybody who would like to discuss the class, as well as any of our competitors who would like help with their cars and engines.
crazycrane48 said
Aug 1 2:18 PM, 2005
I agree it would be nice to race the 450s but the maitnence is too high. Also you would have to figure out new gearing and if something goes wrong with the motor you wouldnt know where to start and look.
29Sleepy said
Aug 1 2:53 PM, 2005
I think you may run into valve cover clearance issues on many chassis, without some plates to offset the engine more. The thumpers are very tall compared to a 2 stroke (see pic of CRf450)
I hear the 250 class is dying , but i dont see it that way, i see more people beleiving the myth that the 600 are so much cheaper, and no one has proved that to me yet. In fact i have a better handle of the 250 class than anyone beings that i have bought and sold over 20 250 cars in the past few years. In fact at our last weeks race there were 5 new 250 cars at our track, most cant afford a top running 600 car since they run about twice as much for a competable car so they 250 class is a good stepping stone. I would be against trying to change over to a 450 class because no one esle on the west coast is going to that power plant. On another note though, i have a 4 strock motor that i have been thinking of trying to get mounted just to see how they will compete, allthough i know they wont be close because we can allready out run most 600s. The Turners in my book are great for the class because they have always been upfront with us when we come to race there and allways share info to make us blend in the feild. I agree with their motor cost program also because we spend about the same on our motors and the handfull of motos i take care of for others. Bottem line the class isnt dying, it is just in a lule and is starting to come back now that the 600 newness is wearing off.
RaceFan said
Aug 7 12:19 PM, 2005
Turner Racing,
I have observed cars from both classes and it seems to me the time/$ spent keeping the 250 engine in top shape takes alot more time and money than the 600. The front running 600's never take the head off all season. 250's require pistons/rings on scheduled basis. Do you replace your rings and pistons?
Am I wrong or does a brand new top of the line Serros(sp) 600 engine cost around 4k?
What does a brand new top of the line 250 cost?
I am not asking what your team can build them for, I am asking If I just make a call what should I expect to pay for a top of the line 250?
I dont race Deming but I do enjoy the racing there including the 250's. I get up there about 2 times a month.
frustrated:
29Sleepy said
Aug 8 4:27 PM, 2005
new from Hyper Racing, which has a long time reputation for building quality chassis and engines lists New race ready engines (including ignition, pump, pipe carb, everything) from $3999 for a 249cc to $4199 for a 263cc 76mm exactly like Eric's Clay Cup winner. A new yamaha R6 puts you back $3575 for their standard complete package, $4325 for the Deluxe package. I am not familiar with Seros' pricing. Now you will hear people say you can go buy a 600 from a wrecked bike, for like $1800 and go race, but this is not including a header, fuel pump and regulator, alcohol conversion, etc. Used 250 engines are around $1500, and the motors haven't really changed, so used is as good as a new one. "micro used" 600's aren't advertised very often...
The big difference is life span. We have newer cylinders on 1997 and 1999 year bottom ends. You may have seen my post on the real cost of 250's it has a pricing breakdown for operating our engine program. For the most part, the guys that have been racing 600's for a long time (mainly on the east coast) find that it is best to just throw away the long block at the end of the season, rather than trying to rebuild and chance it. The rebuild cost nears replacement of the entire engine. If you do lose a 250, 95% of the time its a melted piston, from running too lean (which you can only blame yourself for). Less than $100 and its good as new. Of the 600's that I have seen fail, most have a rod or bearing failure, which creates a rather large paper weight out of a once beautiful engine.
Yes, we do replace piston and rings every six races (so a total of 4 per year) This takes around 30 minutes per car. There is nothing complicated in replacing the piston in a 2 stroke engine. Weekly maintenence includes cleaning filters and carbs, which I would assume the 600's are doing as well. I beleive the 4qts of crankcase/gear oil is changed very regularly by the top 600's, while we replace the 1qt of gearbox oil in ours at midseason.
These are the differences in motor prices and maintenence. the 600's are also harder on tires, and this season, they seem to have a greater occurance of multi car crashes. I am aware of cars that sustained over $4000 in damage from such crashes. I am aware of a race ready 250 program that exchanged hands for about that same price recently.
I am in no way trying to discourage the 600 class from continuing to develop. The 600's are vastly popular in california, and on the east coast both the 250 and 600 classes continue to bring good car counts. Rather I am addressing the facts of the classes, so people understand what they are getting in to. I would hate for someone to hear time and again that the 250's are too much work, too expensive etc, only to find themselves with a larger initial investment struggling just to make the 600 A-main.
If you have more questions regarding the 250 class, we are always more than willing to talk to people about what we run (compression, jetting, gearing, setup). Our team's priority has never been to win more races, it is to race hard, race clean, and have fun doing it, and we have fun when everyone is competitive.
Brandon Turner, and Turner Racing
-- Edited by 29Sleepy at 17:29, 2005-08-08
vpmotorsports00 said
Aug 8 4:55 PM, 2005
being a 600 owner our selves.. ya the 600's sounds cheaper or people say is cheaper to run.. what people dont relize though is to be at the top you are spending WAY WAY more money on tires us having to have what seems like a hoosier dealer in our garage.. where on a 250 you can alomst go through the whole season without having to worry about it... us having a seros motor ourselves know that ya they are roughly $4500 to buy.. but at the end of the year they are also 1500 to 2000 to replace valves and what ever else needs to be done for freshning... if people think the 250's are more expensive to run.. they are sadly mistaken.. not only that, a top running 600 is much more expensive to buy... just a comment from a 600 team who used to race a 250 and wants to see the heart of deming keep on going being the 250's... ryan fischer #00 600
RaceFan said
Aug 9 8:15 PM, 2005
I really enjoy the racing at Deming and have for several years. Paul runs a great program and I look forward to the next time I can make it up there. Watching the stream of drivers coming from Deming to other divisions is quite exciting. Good Luck to all.
29Sleepy said
Aug 10 9:35 AM, 2005
I have been going to Deming since I was about 4 years old, its come a long way in the 19 years I have seen it. Where else can you go and see 5 classes of sprint cars run a full race program in less than 4 hours. Deming creates some of the best drivers in the northwest. Those who spend some time in a micro seem to transition to sprints very well.
As a driver, i appreciate your support of Deming, it is our number one goal to ensure you go home from the races happy.
In my opinion, to keep the 250 class going, they should switch from 250 two stroke motors to 450 four stroke motors. The four stroke are much more reliable and make a little more power and torque. They're going four stroke in the AMA so why shouldn't micro sprints do it.
Just my 2 cents, what do you think?
The biggest problem with the 450 4stroke engines, is the, larger amount of parts (some are 5 valve), the teching issue, and they are $500+ more in the bike. the big advantage for 4strokes in the bikes is the broad powerband and huge torque numbers, but as you can clearly hear in the 600 class, micros rely on the last 20% of the RPM range anyway. The modern Honda based 250 is a very reliable engine, provided you don't try to make up for driver inability by pushing the motor too hard. as long as you jet reasonably and don't run the squish too tight (around .040), these things last great. If you look on page 3 of the racing dscussion, you will find my thread on the real costs of a 250, much lower than the opposition would like you to beleive. A full season of racing on a 250 engine costs us about $1100, and that is a rebuilt crank, fresh plating, pistons, bearings, gears, gaskets. Sure you can spend more, but that is what Eric won the Clay Cup with, so I guess it must be good enough. These engines are readily available for $1500-2000.
The best thing to save the 250 class is for everyone to stop and think about the facts. There are plenty of chassis and engines already in the area, the class has run effectivly the same engine rules for over 10 years, and if you ask around the pits, you will find that the majority of the people who are ACTUALLY IN the 250 classes love them. the combined JR and SR classes have out numbered both the 600's and 1200's for several weeks, so I still say it is a myth that the 250's are dying. They biggest problem with them is that they force you to drive smooth, and that is a tough thing for some drivers to learn. Our team has many plans in the works for the off season and for 06 that should help restore faith in the class, including a "build and maintain your own engines" clinic, class sponsors, and our team is also putting an end to the ever popular "noise" issue, which people defy the science of sound waves to complain about. Listen to the 29 and 92 cars in qualifying for a preview, we are expecting Db levels in the low 80s, almost ten below the other classes. If you are familiar with Db's you will know that a difference of 10db actually means 3x louder or softer.
Forgive me if I am a little direct, but I am very disappointed that there are certain individuals with little to no experience with a 250 whining about how expensive they are. If you look at the numbers, it would be devastating for Deming to loose the 250 class. I do value your opinion, and commend you for making the effort to help save the class by addressing it in a public forum.
Brandon Turner
Deming Speedway patron since 1986
Turner Racing,
I have observed cars from both classes and it seems to me the time/$ spent keeping the 250 engine in top shape takes alot more time and money than the 600. The front running 600's never take the head off all season. 250's require pistons/rings on scheduled basis. Do you replace your rings and pistons?
Am I wrong or does a brand new top of the line Serros(sp) 600 engine cost around 4k?
What does a brand new top of the line 250 cost?
I am not asking what your team can build them for, I am asking If I just make a call what should I expect to pay for a top of the line 250?
I dont race Deming but I do enjoy the racing there including the 250's. I get up there about 2 times a month.
frustrated:
new from Hyper Racing, which has a long time reputation for building quality chassis and engines lists New race ready engines (including ignition, pump, pipe carb, everything) from $3999 for a 249cc to $4199 for a 263cc 76mm exactly like Eric's Clay Cup winner. A new yamaha R6 puts you back $3575 for their standard complete package, $4325 for the Deluxe package. I am not familiar with Seros' pricing. Now you will hear people say you can go buy a 600 from a wrecked bike, for like $1800 and go race, but this is not including a header, fuel pump and regulator, alcohol conversion, etc. Used 250 engines are around $1500, and the motors haven't really changed, so used is as good as a new one. "micro used" 600's aren't advertised very often...
The big difference is life span. We have newer cylinders on 1997 and 1999 year bottom ends. You may have seen my post on the real cost of 250's it has a pricing breakdown for operating our engine program. For the most part, the guys that have been racing 600's for a long time (mainly on the east coast) find that it is best to just throw away the long block at the end of the season, rather than trying to rebuild and chance it. The rebuild cost nears replacement of the entire engine. If you do lose a 250, 95% of the time its a melted piston, from running too lean (which you can only blame yourself for). Less than $100 and its good as new. Of the 600's that I have seen fail, most have a rod or bearing failure, which creates a rather large paper weight out of a once beautiful engine.
Yes, we do replace piston and rings every six races (so a total of 4 per year) This takes around 30 minutes per car. There is nothing complicated in replacing the piston in a 2 stroke engine. Weekly maintenence includes cleaning filters and carbs, which I would assume the 600's are doing as well. I beleive the 4qts of crankcase/gear oil is changed very regularly by the top 600's, while we replace the 1qt of gearbox oil in ours at midseason.
These are the differences in motor prices and maintenence. the 600's are also harder on tires, and this season, they seem to have a greater occurance of multi car crashes. I am aware of cars that sustained over $4000 in damage from such crashes. I am aware of a race ready 250 program that exchanged hands for about that same price recently.
I am in no way trying to discourage the 600 class from continuing to develop. The 600's are vastly popular in california, and on the east coast both the 250 and 600 classes continue to bring good car counts. Rather I am addressing the facts of the classes, so people understand what they are getting in to. I would hate for someone to hear time and again that the 250's are too much work, too expensive etc, only to find themselves with a larger initial investment struggling just to make the 600 A-main.
If you have more questions regarding the 250 class, we are always more than willing to talk to people about what we run (compression, jetting, gearing, setup). Our team's priority has never been to win more races, it is to race hard, race clean, and have fun doing it, and we have fun when everyone is competitive.
Brandon Turner, and Turner Racing
-- Edited by 29Sleepy at 17:29, 2005-08-08
I really enjoy the racing at Deming and have for several years. Paul runs a great program and I look forward to the next time I can make it up there. Watching the stream of drivers coming from Deming to other divisions is quite exciting. Good Luck to all.
I have been going to Deming since I was about 4 years old, its come a long way in the 19 years I have seen it. Where else can you go and see 5 classes of sprint cars run a full race program in less than 4 hours. Deming creates some of the best drivers in the northwest. Those who spend some time in a micro seem to transition to sprints very well.
As a driver, i appreciate your support of Deming, it is our number one goal to ensure you go home from the races happy.
Thanks for your interest in this topic.
Brandon Turner